WHITNEY JOHNSON: Welcome to the Disrupt Yourself Podcast. I'm Whitney Johnson. I think, write, speak, and live all things disruption.
Earlier this year, I did a short experiment with a live internet radio show. Which by the way, did not work–in terms of platform and audience. But I loved the interviews so much, I wanted to make sure that you all, our podcast audience, had an opportunity to hear these conversations.
In the first of these interviews, my guest was Carine Clark. She's a Utah-based, three time CEO, currently CEO of Banyan, a company that helps medical practices engage with their patients. She's a cancer survivor, and Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year in Technology in the Utah region. And a Utah CEO of the Year.
CARINE CLARK: Thank you so much, Whitney. I'm so excited to be here.
WHITNEY: So, your career Carine, has been full of disruptions. Can you give us a bit of background, beginning with where you grew up?
CARINE: Well, I (clears throat) was a, I'm an army brat. I'm the oldest of four, and I was paralyzingly shy as a young person. And I was always pushing against change, was hard for me. Um, my parents left me when I was a senior and I just struggled all the time. I-
WHITNEY: Wait, wait, wait. They left you?
CARINE: They left me.
WHITNEY: They left you? Explain that to me.
CARINE: They left me.
WHITNEY: What does that mean exactly?
CARINE: They wanted to … Um, my father was, um, stationed back in Virginia, and he just came home one night and said, “We're moving back to the states.” And I had lived in Germany for years. And I said, “I'm not moving.” And my mother, you know, she was upset about that. My father said, “You know what? She's old enough.” And so, uh, they went back to the states, and I stayed in Germany by myself, which was, which was probably the best thing that could happen to me. Talk about disruption. Because I was by myself, and I had to, I had to figure things out. And I started to figure out that I could figure things out.
CARINE: So, came to college and again, everything was hard for me. Because I had, wasn't sure what I wanted to do, no one really helped me. Um, the guy I was dating as a freshman was killed in a car accident. It just felt like everything was hard. And then I started to figure out that that's what life was. It's that, only thing that doesn't change was change.
Uh, went into technology after I graduated, and I've been in technology ever since.
WHITNEY: Wait, so back up. So you, your parents leave you. Not really, but they let you fend for yourself in Germany.
WHITNEY: And so then you come to college. And so you, you come to college and what did you decide that you were going to study in college?
CARINE: I studied, I decided I was going to study art. And I loved design and art, but I hated the classes.
CARINE: So, um, so I, so I signed up for all the art classes. And I remember going to the teacher and saying, “I'm not, I can't do this.” And he's like, “Sure you can. You, you're terrific.” I'm like, “No, I don't want to do this.” And so, um, I started taking communications classes, and fell in love with communication and how behavior, and how people do things. And so ended graduating with a degree in Organizational Communications.
CARINE: Went on to study Library Science.
WHITNEY: As a master's, or?
CARINE: As a master's. As a master's. I was working in the, in the library, and loved the isolation of the library. Loved the quiet. Loved the information. It was like heaven for me. Um, but I didn't thrive in that environment, because I wanted to change things. I wanted to get rid of the card catalog, I wanted to make all these improvements. And I remember when the librarian said to me, “Someone has to die for you to be promoted.” And as a-
CARINE: As a young person who loves technology, it was horrifying. So I quit my job. And there were a lot of tech companies in Utah at the time, mainly Novell and WordPerfect. I interviewed at both and got a job at both, and chose the Novell job because it's where my husband was working.
WHITNEY: So, so you, so you graduate, you do organizational communications as an undergrad. First disrupting yourself, 'cause you think you're going to do art. Then you do organizational communications, then you decide to go into Library Sciences, and you realize that in order for any disruption to occur inside of that organization, someone's going to have to die.
WHITNEY: So you think, “I probably better move.” And then you move from Library Sciences to working in a technology company.
WHITNEY: Lots of chutes and ladders, here going on, right?
WHITNEY: Okay, so, Novell. What happens at Novell?
CARINE: So, Novell was, uh, an amazing ride for a young person, because I'm working with some, you know, historical figures even thought I don't know it at the time. So, I met folks like Eric Schmidt, and Steve Ballmer, and Bill Gates. And, um, Jim Cannovino of IBM. But I'm a young person, so I'm thinking this is normal. And, um, I loved information remember. And I loved the speed of technology, so I'm kind of moving my way through the company. Every couple years I took a different job. Not because I was bored, but because I wanted to add some pretty cool tools to my toolbox.
And so, um, I guess that was the beginning of my, you know, genesis of really embracing disruption is that, if I can't progress, I'll step aside to take a different job. But always in marketing. And, nearly the end of my time at Novell, so almost fifteen years, I realized I hadn't been, didn’t have the product chops that I wanted. So I went into the product group, and then, uh, the company acquired another company. And all of a sudden, I'm out of a job because, um, I … There's no place for me to go, and I want to do something else. So I get off the ride.
WHITNEY: Huh. Okay. So. Fifteen years, same company, you change jobs every couple of years. In, or change roles inside of Novell every few years.
WHITNEY: Which I think is important, because I think oftentimes when people think of career disruption, they think they have to change companies. And what you're saying is you were able to change roles three or four, maybe five times.
WHITNEY: During your fifteen years at Novell.
WHITNEY: But then, they get acquired and you said, you basically, were you laid off, or?
CARINE: So, I was laid off of, from the, this, the new CMO came in and said. ‘Cause I was, I had all these ideas for things we could do, finally, we could keep going, and she's like, “Uh, no. We're not going to go that direction.” I was like, “Okay.” And she said, and I was six months pregnant with triplets.
WHITNEY: Mm-hmm (affirmative)
CARINE: And she said, “Um, we're going to make some changes.” And I didn't like the changes. So she said, “Then, then you're not going to be here.” I'm like, “Great. Uh, I'm six months pregnant with triplets.” She's like, “You are not.” I'm like, “Wow. I actually am.”
CARINE: “I just hide it really well.” And I was, I was pretty calm because I had all this experience, I had all these connections. But I had been at this company for so long. It was, uh, all I really knew. And so I didn't sign any packages, I didn't sign any, um, nothing. And I waited probably three months before I agreed to any separation. Which turned out to be, I actually had another job before that because I knew that this was a chance for me to really see how good my skills were.
CARINE: I'd been promoted a ton, but now it's time to see. Okay, roll the dice on your own skills. And so I had five job offers. And, uh, they were terrific. Except for one was horrible.
CARINE: And I took the horrible one.
WHITNEY: You took the horrible job?
CARINE: I took the horrible job. On paper, it was the lowest, it was no title. It was a third of my pay. It was no staff, no budget, no office, a cubicle. And it was this little tiny startup that no one had heard about. And the other jobs were all vice president jobs, CMO jobs. And it was the beginning of people starting to tell me, say this thing to me that you just mentioned. “Have you lost your mind. Have you lost your mind?”
CARINE: And people thought it was 'cause I was pregnant.
WHITNEY: (laughs) You were having pregnancy brain. Ah.
CARINE: Yes, yes.
WHITNEY: Oh, she's traumatized. She lost her job. She's pregnant with triplets. That must be why she's going to this lame-o job.
CARINE: Yes. She's nesting. She's just was trying to take a job that she can overshadow, and she's just afraid. And people said things to me, and I was like, “No, I know what I have to do.”
CARINE: Even my husband said, “Why don't you wait until you've had the babies and then?”
CARINE: And I actually, I lost one. I lost the second one, so then it was like, “Okay, she's real, she's really spiraling.”
CARINE: And I, so I accepted the job. They knew I was, I told them I was six months pregnant. And they're like, “You're not.” I'm thinking, “Why does everybody keep telling me this?” And I didn't have to tell them, but I want, I didn't want them to ever be surprised. I wanted them to make the decision knowing that I was going to have to take a few months off.
WHITNEY: But why … So let's back up for a second though, because why did you take that job? What was in your, what, so … Again, we think about it. People think you've lost your mind, but you're playing a longer game, right? You've got a longer time horizon, so what was in your brain that said, “No, I'm actually going to bet on this job.” What was happening?
CARINE: Well the other jobs were very seductive, right? The titles and the money, and … But this company had some assets that I didn't think they actually realized that they had.
And I thought to myself, “You know what? I can go in here. I can actually do a great job and see my fingerprints on every part of this process, and build a pretty cool team instead of inheriting a team. Instead of going into a bunch of problems. Instead of going into places where the brand's already set. I can actually build something pretty cool that I haven't done before in a smaller company. So let's see, Carine, let's see what you can do, because you're already … You had a great career at Novell.”
Loved my time there, loved what I did. Oh, by the way, that CMO didn't last very long, and when they called me to come back, I'm like, “You know what? The toothpaste is kind of out of that tube, so there’s no putting it back for me.”
CARINE: “And I'm going to do this.” And I didn't know if I could do it. I just, I'm pretty open to what the universe has for me, and this was something that was exciting and terrifying. And yet, I had skills that no one else had there. So I was like, “Why not? This is the best time to do it.” I had a nice severance from my company before. I had no debt. I had lots of room to move, so if I fail, I can do something else. It was a very liberating feeling for me.
WHITNEY: Yeah, that is fascinating. So, so basically you're at Novell. What was your role at Novell when you left?
CARINE: I was Senior Director of Product, of all the products. Of product marketing, product management.
WHITNEY: Okay, so. And you had tested yourself. But now you're like, “Alright, I'm not the CMO. I want to go test my skills and see what I'm really.” You wanted to just see what you were really made of, 'cause you wanted to make sure that in fact all those promotions were for real. And that you had real skills.
CARINE: Right, and I had … I was recognized as Employee of the Year. I had all these big awards at the company, and so you start to, you know, you start to believe that stuff. And then you're like, “That stuff's not real.” Like, how good am I?
WHITNEY: I think this is a great time to go for a break. Everyone, thank you for tuning in. We will be right back after our commercial spot, talking more with Carine Clark, the CEO of Banyan.
For you, the listeners of the Disrupt Yourself Podcast, Audible is offering a free audiobook download with a 30-day trial so you can check out their service.
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WHITNEY: So Carine, tell us what happened next after you took this job at Altiris.
CARINE: Well, I started as entry level manager, sitting in a cubicle and, um, the president came by. The CEO came by and said, “I don't understand you. You're this big executive from Novell and you're sitting in a cubicle.” And I'm like, “Yes.” He's like, “That makes me nervous.” I'm like, “Sir, I'm going to do a great job for you.” And I did.
So, I moved very quickly through the company. Later found out that the CMO, when he interviewed me, he said, “I knew you'd be taking my job.” And, um, he wasn't afraid of that because he said, “Look, if you can make a bigger pie for me, then, you know, we all win.”
So, worked really hard, built a great team. Uh, the company thrived. The company end up, we were acquired by Symantec for 1.3 billion dollars. Um, five years after I had started there. It wasn't me, it was the team. They had done a great job of selling and growing. What I brought to the company was the ability to partner with some pretty amazing companies pretty quickly. And so that helped in the growth.
Um, pretty disruptive to be acquired by the third largest software company in the world, in California. Different culture, different everything. Um, the rest of the executives were excited about it. I really wasn't.
CARINE: And it's funny, that I've turned out to be the only executive that actually stayed with the company. Um, the CE- president offered me the Chief Marketing Officer job, which at first I was like, “No.” ‘Cause Symantec can have anyone they want. But I had a different type of advantage. I was a very, uh, quant-driven marketing executive. I knew all my stats, I knew my ratios, I knew how to grow businesses. I knew how to be pretty productive with the money that I was given. So I ended up accepting the job, and was, did that for six years.
WHITNEY: Wait, so Symantec acquires Altiris for a billion three, and what was the market cap of Symantec at this time?
CARINE: Gosh, I don't remember, but it was massive. Because it was a…
WHITNEY: It was like, a lot bigger, right?
CARINE: It was a lot bigger. A lot.
WHITNEY: Okay, so they acquire you, and then you end up becoming their CMO.
WHITNEY: Okay. I'm sensing a pattern here. Alright, so what happened? You're at Symantec for how many years, and then what do you do next?
CARINE: Was with Symantec for five years. Um, loved my job, loved my team. It was a massive organization but it was a hard job because Symantec keeps the world safe from all the bad guys. And so you're at, you're paying attention to world threats all the time.
Five years into it, um, diagnosed with stage 3C ovarian clear cell cancer, which came out of the blue. Because no one in my family has cancer. No one, I'm a very healthy lifestyle. You know, never taken anything stronger than a Motrin in my whole life. And, um, this was just, was devastating because I had a 20% survival rate. And here I have a 9 year old, and a 17 year boy, boys, that I worked really hard to get on the planet, and now I'm going to leave? And now, there's going to be a second wife? And now, I'm at the top of my career and this is it? I'm done?
So, it was, um, terrifying but also another chance to say, “Huh? How tough are you? What have you got? How you going to deal with this? How you going to- you going to curl up in a ball and sob uncontrollably, or are you going to use your MBA? Are you going to use your, all the skills that you have to negotiate and hammer things, and are you going to face this with guts and tenacity. And, by the way, show your children what that means to stand up to something pretty awful.”
CARINE: And so, that's what I tried to do.
WHITNEY: How did your, you just said something that I thought was really interesting. How did your MB- … You said, “I'm going to use my MBA to, to lick this.” Like, how did that, how did that come into your calculus?
CARINE: So, when a doctor said … I said, “What's my survival rate?” He said, “We're not going to tell you.” I said, “You know I have the internet in my hand. I can find it.”
WHITNEY: (laughs) Mm-hmm (affirmative)
CARINE: He said, “Okay, you have a 20% chance of beating this, and most people don't beat it.” And so, uh, I just sat there for a second. I didn't cry. I didn't, uh, I j-, my brain started kicking into motion. It's like, okay, what tools do you have to fight this? Well, I worked really hard to get my MBA, and my MBA has helped me manage the business of my life.
And so I used that to negotiate, to plan, to do everything because my job was one job. To beat the cancer and to build a plan that would beat the cancer. So I built a team. I started interviewing people to be on part of my team. My oncologist, my surgeon, my, all the people that helped me. My nurses. Um, I started looking at options. So they said, “Your protocol is two cancer drugs, every three weeks for six months.”
Well, I had done my research. So I said, “Actually, there's a better protocol. That's three cancer drugs every single week for six months. And one cancer drug every 21 days for a year. Eighteen months of chemo. Sign me up for that.”
And they said, “Everyone finds that, but no one can do it because it's just so punishing physically and mentally.” And I said, “Look. I have two sons that I worked for 22 years to get here. I am not going to check out this way. So this is what I'm going to do.”
And I did it. I did 18 months of chemo. And I said, “I'm not going to lose my hair.” And they're like, “Uh. You should worry about the cancer, not your hair.” But I said, “Nope. I need my sons' friends, when they come over to the house, not to say to them all the time, ‘What's wrong with your mom? Why's she bald?'” So I did. And I used my MBA to negotiate that. So, it was really about-
CARINE: -a great learning experience for me because we are tougher than we know. And people are good. And happiness is a choice. Those were the three things that I took out of it.
WHITNEY: So how many years have you been cancer free?
CARINE: I've only been cancer free for about a year now. I was diagnosed in 2012. I did, I had to be five years clear. And then last year, when they said, my surgeon said to me, “I don't think it's coming back.” And my oncologist said, “I think we're through it.” I still get checked all the time.
CARINE: Because cancer's crazy. Comes back when it wants. But I choose to live my life, whatever I've got left, with just as much grace and humility as I can.
WHITNEY: You know what's interesting about that, carrying on this topic of disruption that we're talking about today, is that sometimes we disrupt ourselves. And sometimes we're disrupted. And what you just said is happiness is a choice. And you know, whether we see failure or success is a choice. Like, everything we do, how we respond to things is always a choice, and I think it's a, um, a really good reminder.
So, you were CMO at Symantec, you have cancer, and then you disrupt yourself again and go become the CEO of a company. How do you run businesses differently now having had cancer? Having had that experience? Having had that, that, uh, you know, sort of crash course in life and survival and resilience?
CARINE: Well as horrible as it sounds, cancer, turns out the cancer was a gift for me. Because when you think you're going to die, it changes you forever. And it teaches you that you have to run to the fire, right? So, when you have cancer, you don't have any other option but to run to the fire. Some people kind of curl up in a ball and just follow some script someone wrote them.
But since, I've been changed, understanding that we're all going to die. So I know I'm going to die, I don't waste time on anything that's not going to help me do what I need to do, help me become a better person. And I use all that scar tissue from the past to move pretty quickly though problems.
So, I come back to Symantec. The day before I come back … I took a six month leave, I was still on, doing chemotherapy for another year. And the day before I come back, they fire my boss who I loved and adored. He was the CEO. And the new CEO, it was just, not my CEO. So. And, I knew that I didn't love my job as much as I used to. So I had decided that I was going to leave, was easy for me because I'd already … I think I'm going to die, so I'm not doing anything I don't want to do.
So, for example, I don't clean my house anymore. I outsource. I don't balance my checkbook anymore. I don't do anything I don't want to do. And so I said, “I'm going to take myself out.” So it took me a few months to get out, but I had already decided I wasn't going to, I wasn't going to come back. So I came back in July but I didn't leave until January.
And I had, was open again. What should I do? And, um, people told me I should go and be a CMO, but there was all these startups in Utah that needed a CEO. And so one of those companies called me and said, “We'd like you to be the CEO.” And I had to really be thoughtful about, can I, can I pull this off with all the skills that I have? And so, I wasn't sure, but why not? Because not many CMOs become the CEO. But once you're the CEO and you've proven you can do it, then that is a much bigger universe of opportunity for you as an executive.
WHITNEY: Absolutely. And again, going back to this idea of chutes and ladders. So, your P&L at Symantec was, what? A billion dollars. And you go to Allegiance, and the revenue is a fraction of that.
CARINE: The revenue is, yeah, seven. Seven.
WHITNEY: So P&L of a billion to revenue of seven million dollars.
WHITNEY: Did people think you'd lost your mind again?
CARINE: You…she has lost… It's the cancer this time. The cancer-
WHITNEY: First it's babies, now it's the cancer.
CARINE: And what's funny is that, if you grow up not caring about peer pressure, 'cause clearly I didn't, 'cause I didn't have that many friends and I just did what I wanted to do. And you know, peer pressure doesn't go away when you're a grownup. There's still peer pressure. People are like, “It's going to destroy your career. Your resume is going to be jacked up. This is reckless.” I mean, people said things to me, and I would listen to them. I'd be like, “Well, you're not right.”
And if I don't want to do this, if I gave in and I'm over my head. Or I can't pull it off, or I hate it, then I'll go do something else. But so far, I've never hated it. I've always jumped in. It's like, I know what I can do. I know what I can't do, so I got to hire some folks. But I know that, I know that…
WHITNEY: What do you, what are some things you know you can do? I said, “I know I can do.” So, if someone asked you that, what's, what are one or two things you're like, “I know I can do this.”
CARINE: So first thing, I know I can jump in and understand the numbers very quickly. So I've done a ton of acquisitions. When I mean a ton, more than hundreds. And I can jump into a company, look through the numbers and figure out exactly where the problems are. So, the numbers don't scare me. I understand the math. I appreciate the math. And I dig deep for the math.
The other thing I know how to do is I know how to grow things. I know how to partner. I know how to lose to win, in technology, in revenue. And so most people don't know how to do that. And so when I show them what that means, they're like, “Okay, that's magic if it works.”
And it's work, too, but it's how to grow faster.
WHITNEY: Okay, so you take on Allegiance, and seven million dollars. Talk us through your next couple of up the ladder and then jumping again. Talk us … Start to bring us up to the present.
CARINE: So I jump into Allegiance, a company run by millennials. Uh, all dev. So technical guys who wear shower shoes but don't shower. Um, they're very different from me.
WHITNEY: (laughs) What does that mean, you wear shower shoes but don't shower?
CARINE: They, they're very casual. They wear shorts and flip-flops to work.
WHITNEY: Got it. Okay.
CARINE: Uh, mostly young men. Um, very entitled. Good guys, but millennials. And I show up. I'm old, female, been in tech for 30 years, MBA. And wear pearls and drink Perrier. Right? That's so foreign to them. And so I interviewed every employee for 30 minutes, just so I could get a understanding where I was at. And I realized I was a complete outsider.
So, um, and I didn't want to displace the founder because he was terrific, a spiritual leader. So worked really hard to build the team and to show the team what success looked like. Started to partner, revenue started growing, started fixing the churn, got rid of a bunch business, parts of business that weren't going to help us. Um, services and stuff that's attractive 'cause it's money, but horrible margin.
And then built, and honed a really terrific business that was attractive to other companies. Started to partner. One of those partners had an interest in the technology, so that partner came in and bought the business.
CARINE: And so now, now we're a 200 million dollar business, with two very different cultures, very different investors. Um, really hard, hard to put those two companies together but super proud of what we were able to build. A marriage of technology and services. And did that for a couple of years.
WHITNEY: Wait. Okay, so, I want to interject now. Didn't you end up becoming the CEO of the combined entity?
WHITNEY: Okay, so, again. Goliath buys David, but you end up going, you become the CEO.
WHITNEY: So that's happened twice now.
CARINE: That's happened … Yeah, and it's, and … I don't look like what they want, because I'm female, I'm in technology, and I'm from Utah which is very different from the owners. But they also saw an energy and a passion, and ability in our team. And I think that they were worried about losing that, because they needed that, which I think is why they bought the business.
So, but really, really, really hard to put the two companies together. A lot of travel, a lot of very large accounts, which I was used to because of my time at Symantec. But two really amazing but also tough years.
CARINE: Tough years. And the investors and the owners had made commitments about bringing in technology investments, which was important to me. And making some changes, and as we got through the two years, they did change their mind. And so, it wasn't going to be a place for me. I couldn't do it long term, because remember, I beat cancer.
CARINE: I, I don't do things that are just punishing all the time. I don't … If I can't make a difference, if I can't make a change, then um, I'm going to do something else. And people always think I've lost my mind. So I guess the message for me is that, you have to listen to your inner core self, that knows you better than anyone.
WHITNEY: So you left.
WHITNEY: Okay. So this time, you left on your own. You're just like, “Alright, we're going to do something else.” So, tell us about what you're doing today.
CARINE: So today I'm at a startup called Banyan. And it is, um, again it's funny because I took my time. I took six or seven months just working with entrepreneurs, doing things I wanted to do. Working out dur-, working out during the daytime 'cause you know, it's like, that's different. Spend time with my kids. Traveling. Just doing whatever I wanted. Completely open to opportunities. Had a lot of opportunities, not because I'm so awesome, but because I'm a known quantity. And there are a lot of companies that need executives, CEOs to help them get to the next level. And so, um, tons of opportunities.
But this little company called Banyan … The investors called me, and I'm like, “No. I'll give you five minutes.” Well, after 90 minutes of talking with them, I realized it was just like Altiris. They had assets they didn't know about, run by, this was run by young people again. So that was more like Allegiance, that they had these millennials that had started the company. Three founders who grew quickly, and then just kind of didn't know how to get to the next level.
And, um, pretty disruptive for me to show up. Again, a woman, older, been in some big companies and I show up at this little tiny company. Most of these employees, this was their first or second job. Most of them hadn't been to college, most of them didn't have other experience. So I show up, July, and uh, meet every employee. Again, about 45 minutes, and then I can start to see pieces that I thought were the way to go. It was the way to go.
WHITNEY: Wow. Wow.
CARINE: So, um, changing the road map. Bringing in some other folks, and signing up partners. So now we've got 23 partners in less than seven months.
WHITNEY: Amazing. Amazing. Amazing.
CARINE: It's so cool.
WHITNEY: So, Carine, thank you. I mean, what a wonderful example of repeated personal disruptions and how you've been willing to take a step back. And every single time you've, it's been a slingshot forward. I hope that everyone listening has gotten something super valuable in terms of how you can manage your own career, your own team, your own business. Um, thank you Carine Clark for joining us today. Uh, it's, it's been a terrific, uh, conversation.
CARINE: A pleasure.
Carine Clark is a textbook disruptor–a master of personal disruption. No one pushed her to jump, she didn’t need to jump, she just does. Repeatedly. To be fair, Carine is an outlier. Most of us aren’t quite the thrill seeker she is, but watch how she does what she does. It’s a master class.
Practical tip: Look back at your own career. You’ll see that you’ve disrupted yourself more than you think you have–and give yourself a high five.
Thank you to caitlymcg for leaving our review of the week on iTunes. She said –
Whitney’s insight and interviewees provide great perspective shifts for me. Each episode feels like valuable education – rich and always applicable!
Thank you so much, caitlymcg! Send us an email at email@example.com, we’ll send you to say thank you, a copy of my latest book Build an A Team. For those of you listening today, we’d love for you to leave a review as well.
If you’d like to learn more about my new Build an A Team with Harvard Business Press, you can download the first chapter at whitneyjohnson.com/ateam.
Thank you again to each of you for listening. We really, really appreciate it. Thanks again to Carine Clark for being our guest, thank you to sound engineer Whitney Jobe, manager / editor Macy Robison, content contributors Emilie Davis and Libby Newman, and art director Brandon Jameson.
I’m Whitney Johnson
And this is Disrupt Yourself.